Podcasts

Claire de Mezerville Lopez 

Hello everybody and welcome to Restorative Works, a podcast where learning, practice, and research open new paths for transformation. My name is Claire De Mezerville Lopez, and it is my joy to reintroduce our guests, already good friends of the podcast, Lan Nguyen and Jennifer Vermillion. And welcome back for part two of a prior conversation that was so good. Jen, Lan, how are you today?

Lan Nguyen 

Doing pretty good, all things considered.

Jennifer Vermillion

Yeah. Doing well, thank you.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez

I relate to that. So before getting started with the conversation, allow me to reintroduce you to our audience. Lan Nguyen is a futurist educator and leader who is passionate about designing and implementing more liberatory ways of engaging, teaching, and leading in schools. In her work, she critiques and examines systems of power, applies participatory and humanizing approaches to systems change, and uses a decolonial lens to understand issues of educational and social inequity. Nguyen has held diverse roles in K-12 education, supporting local, statewide, and national projects on community engagement and school climate. She currently supports restorative justice practices implementation across San Diego County and the San Diego County Office of Education. As for Jennifer Vermillion, she is a project specialist with the San Diego County Office of Education, providing professional learning and coaching on restorative justice practices and implementation. She received her bachelor's in psychology and her master's degree in peace and justice studies. Prior to working with the county office, Jennifer spent five years with a nonprofit, supporting schools in San Diego with their restorative practice implementation, training, and student leadership initiatives. And Jennifer also provided direct services in addressing conflict issues between students, families, and school staff through a restorative justice model that restored individuals back into the community and kept youth out of the justice system. Jennifer has also worked as an adjunct professor at Point Loma Nazarene University in the criminal justice department, teaching restorative practices and as an alternative to the traditional justice system, and lastly, as a mother of three, Jennifer regularly applies the philosophies and skills learned in restorative practices to build positive relationships with and between her own children. And Jennifer, Lan, welcome back. Last time I learned so much from you from the importance of this decolonial lens. So I wanted to start with this theme: keeping youth out of the justice system.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez

It is a shared responsibility between families and communities and, of course, other actors. What are the implementation processes that you believe influence this work most directly? And I wonder, Lan, is it okay if we start with you and pass it to Jen?

Lan Nguyen

Sure, no problem. This question, what it brings up for me is, you know, I know of course in restorative justice we often talk about the school to prison pipeline or you know, a term I heard recently that I think also kind of broadens that perspective is the idea of this the school to prison nexus, the connection between prison systems and our schools and how they actually influence each other rather than sort of this singular one way pipeline between, you know, schools and prisons, but that the practices in prisons really actually frame how schools are run. You know, from everything from the very structured bells in schools, you know, marking the passage of time, the high amount of student to teacher ratio, the cafeterias, right? And so, there's actually a historical relationship between those two things. And so, that's kind of something that comes to mind, thinking about our different roles in this system, right? And so this question around shared responsibility between family and community, for me, I find that that responsibility is actually more on leaders and systems. Because of course, while in an ideal world, let's say from this perspective of a school, that families would be engaged in that and so would communities, the gatekeepers, right, are often the people in formal positions of power in our schools, in other parts of the education system, right? And so for me, I think I've been sort of in conversations recently with different folks doing restorative justice work in different spaces within San Diego County. And one thing I've really been thinking about is the extent to which we are connected or disconnected. And so what this brings up for me is, and I can give a specific example, right? Someone I was talking to does a lot of work around youth with developmental disabilities. And so how are, you know, youth and young adults with developmental disabilities offered or not offered restorative justice processes? How are those processes actually accessible to them or not? And then I'm kind of thinking about the whole spectrum of that. Like, what are all those points of intervention and prevention?

From different folks in the system that can interrupt that pipeline or that, you know, the likelihood or that youth will be involved in the justice system. And so I think to answer that question, the implementation processes that influence this most directly are, I think, the need for collaboration across organizations and within a region. You know, working with people who are doing violence intervention right at the community level all the way up to I would kind of define our role as working really strongly in that proactive state, right? Like, if we do our work, if we make an influence, right? Or, you know, assuming we make an influence in our work, that we would see nothing happen, right? That's the hope that we would be preventing those other things from happening down the line. Right. And so I would say the need for more connection across organizations, across roles, to address the context of the community and the geographic region. And so that's something that I think is so important.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez

Jen, what do you think?

Jennifer Vermillion 

Yeah. I mean, I 100% agree with all of that. And I also think my initial thought actually seems to align very well with kind of what Lan was explaining. And some of the terms that Lan specifically was using was around the ideas of gatekeeping and the idea of who's kind of who's at the table with these processes. And I think, in particular, some of the things that I have seen is that, you know, there absolutely are some people that are kind of holding these practices or this maybe even this like singular lens of like what our role is in our responsibility of helping to bring up our youth. From, you know, educators in the classroom to the leadership on a school campus to the way that we are involving community members and organizations and families too. I have a good friend who is a fierce, fierce advocate for her in particular; you know, she's got four kids, and three of them have some learning challenges in the school system and at different levels of severity. And she's been this fierce, fierce advocate for neurodivergent children and her children in particular, but all children. And you know, I've had so many conversations around what it's taken for her to get basic supports and needs met for her kids. And not a lot of people know or have the capacity or the time or energy to do that sort of advocacy. And so it shouldn't just be on her, you know. Those sorts of things should kind of come naturally. One of the organizations that I used to work with before the county office, I think one of their greatest strengths is when it would come to working with youth, particularly who had already kind of got in trouble with the legal system, is that I mean, it was a great program because it gave them the opportunity to have any charges dropped, had to have them experience this sort of process to, you know, repair the harm that they had caused.

But one of the greatest strengths was that they not only would provide a restorative process, but they would intentionally connect them to the needs that they had, to organizations and the community, to things that the youth were looking forward to, that, you know, things that they were interested in. And that was an amazing part of that program. The downside is that, and I think this is kind of what Lan was talking about with the proactiveness, is it shouldn't take them getting in trouble with the law and having this very unique experience for that to be available to them or to have a mother who knows to ask the right questions to get them the support and the need that they help. And it really should be all of our role, whether we are classroom teachers, school administrators, we are in the community, we are the parent to look at the whole child's needs. And I know it's tempting because we have, you know, especially in the school system, a lot of people with limited resources to support, limited resources and time, funding, things like that, or even training and know-how about how to support. So looking at that from that whole child lens and looking and really evaluating who is at the table from the very beginning, before there is a problem, before our youth, you know, are already kind of entering into that that pipeline.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez

Wow, that is so important. We're going to take a short break, and then we're going to continue this conversation with Jen and with Lan. Please stay tuned.

Welcome back to Restorative Works. Lan, as I was listening to you when you were describing that (school-to-prison) nexus, I was thinking about not only what Jen was saying about creating these spaces, but also the structure of these spaces, how challenging it can be. When you described the nexus, I was remembering of how we used to talk a lot at the university of how schools are very much like factories. So, how do we create that system that, as Jen just mentioned, has at its very heart the needs of the child, you know, the needs of the young person. So, I have this next question for both of you. How about this time we do it the other way around, and Jen, we go to you first, and then we'd pass it over to Lan? Which do you believe are some strategic spaces where this work could be advanced? And how do you think that restorative practices could help?

Jennifer Vermillion

Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things that make us such a powerful field is that it really applies to everywhere, right? Everywhere that we are having human interactions. But if we're keeping on the theme of looking at, you know, avoiding this nexus as Lan was discussing, I think some of the things that we highlighted in the previous question around, you know, looking at who's at the table and, you know, who does not have the privilege of, you know, being called to the table. So I think again, going back to, and maybe it's because I'm a mother, but you know, looking at our families, I think it's one area: looking at it and really utilizing their voices and inviting their voices to the table. And that's one of the things that we hear a lot when we are working with educators, and we are doing professional learning; we are helping with the implementation is you know, they're like, this is great, we're loving this, how can we get this to our families? And not just because, you know, I really truly believe that the majority of the time people are doing the very best that they can with what they have available to them, but having that alignment between our schools and our families. I mean, I know lots of parents that, you know, they send their children to, like, early education, and it feels like this partnership between the school and the families, and they see, you know, there are more opportunities for their children to thrive. And then it's like as our children get older, that becomes less of a partnership. And then I think you see a lot of fractures in relationships that way. So, that's one of my first thoughts is, you know, making sure that we're including the families, that we are including the parents, and that we are making this work available to them. And also just kind of creating that alignment between, you know, what we are implementing in the schools and how we are bringing in the voices of our families, but also our students too.

I think oftentimes this whole work is predicated on the idea of doing WITH people, not TO people. And it can still be very easy to implement anything, even restorative justice practices TO people. And so, making sure that we are not just repeating the same patterns that we have and putting a prettier title on it.

Lan Nguyen 

Yeah, one of the things that I shared in our first conversation and that I just wanted to bring up again was one of the things that I think about a lot is how we often know what to do. We know we actually have plenty of frameworks around justice, around equity, around even restorative justice. We know this idea that, or it's become at least increasingly important, this understanding that engaging community and families, having a more collectivist approach to education and to our organizations, to our workplaces. Like, there are a lot of spaces now, and just in the spaces that we're in, there's lots of great ideas. And I often say that there's a point where we don't need more ideas, we don't need more frameworks; we actually need execution. We need to do it. And then I'm often thinking, okay, so things just like Jen was sharing around family and community engagement, around creating the conditions for true belonging. What's preventing that? Right? And to me, I think that if I had to, you know, sort of put all my chips and all my resources into one area of systems change and education when it comes to creating those systems is actually focusing the work on adults. I would put 90% of my resources, my time, my effort on adults because so often they understand the ideas of doing this, right? But a lot of them are dysregulated. They are not able to show up in a grounded and balanced way. And we talk about at the classroom level that I, as a classroom teacher, am the foundation of a community, of a space of belonging and inclusion. And so it's hard for me to do that when I am not okay. And so I feel like the thing that is under addressed and there is more conversation around adult well-being, but I think that's the heart of the issue. I actually think that we need to be focusing so much of our energy and time on creating healing spaces for adults to experience this kind of way of being, to deepen their understanding versus sort of you know the traditional approach of “hey go to a training and then go do the thing” and we know that with restorative philosophies that that doesn't work right unless I truly understand it and can embody it. It is inauthentic, and so for me, when I see any change what prevents people from doing it or from feeling successful in it is this sort of short-term view, right?

So how do we understand or how do we create conditions as leaders and systems to take care of, like to radically take care of and really give the same amount of love and care to adults as we have for youth. And I often say youth are not more important in the system; they're equally important. Of course, as adults, we have the responsibility to care for them and to make sure that they're safe and all of that. But there's a way that we have that conversation where we say, "Well, the adults, right? We're supposed to give up our needs all the time”. And I would argue that that's how the system's been set up and it's not working really well. So we might want to consider, right, how do we pour into our adults? How do we create the conditions to make success more likely? And that's kind of, you know, one of the critiques I often bring up is we actually know what to do. So, what's happening, right? What's preventing us from getting where we want to go?  And so, you know, I kind of also think about the question about what's so powerful about restorative practices is that it's not just a thing that you do, it's also a form of leadership. It's a form of organizing. It actually can be applied to changing systems, right? I kind of think about systems change and being more collective as, like, how do we expand the circle? How do we bring more people in? And it's we have to lead the way in a way that it's in alignment with restorative philosophies. And to do that means we have to care very deeply about the adults. And that's tends to be less popular in education, I would say. And I actually like to often say that we can support a sense of martyrdom in adults, where we say, of course you're supposed to give yourself up and your needs for the students. And if you're not doing that, then you're not considered an effective educator or effective leader, right? Are you sacrificing enough? Again, for me to connect and to show up and be present in relationship, I need to be okay. I need to be well. And so our systems make us unwell. And I think that that's the key condition that we need to address in order to really make this work take root or to deepen the work.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez 

I think that makes a perfect segue to the final question that I wanted to ask both of you. I deeply feel everything that you just said. I think restorative philosophies are a form of leadership, and they need to go through that embodiment that becomes very personal, is not just behavior. It is so much deeper than that. Having said that, for all of us that are really committed to this work, we are on this challenge of how do we do better each day? How do we get better every day? Especially through challenging times and all of the different things that we're going through. So I wanted to ask both of you, as we get close to wrapping up this conversation, what do you think are the skills or the tips, or the advices that you think could be most valuable to us as we implement restorative practices and are trying to navigate the day-to-day. And Lan, how about we start with you and then we pass it over to Jen.

Lan Nguyen

Sure, no problem. And I think this is more of a mental tool than a practical tool. And so, my mental tool that I would offer for maintaining a sense of hope and groundedness in this work is to remember that we are not the first to engage in any kind of justice work, that we are actually part of a long lineage of leaders who have had to do this work in similar or even more challenging conditions. And that this work is intergenerational. And I think that when we can step back and understand ourselves as part of you know, folks that have come before us and the youth that will come after us, that kind of broadens our perspective and helps us to have a sense of perspective that change takes time. And, you know, there's that Chinese proverb about planting a tree with whose shade you'll never experience, or something like that, right? And it's the idea of: we are experiencing the shade from trees that people earlier than us planted and didn't get to experience or benefit from. And so that's the sort of connection, you know, between generations or ancestral connections, if you will, depending on how you think of that. But I think that perspective is really helpful because our lifetime and our lifespans are relatively short. And so just remembering that we're part of this bigger intergenerational flow, I think, is a really helpful perspective in that just because we're not seeing the change happen dramatically overnight doesn't mean that the things that we're planting don't matter. And so to me, that helps when I'm feeling a sense of when my focus is a bit too narrow on the problems in my particular context, is sort of pulling out a bit and understanding and it's actually a gift and a privilege to be engaged in such humanizing work. And to even be having this conversation on this podcast is, I would say, probably affected by the work of so many people before us. And so that's a mental tool that I keep with me to maintain hope and connection.

Claire De Mezerville Lopez 

We love that. Jen?

Jennifer Vermillion

I think two of the words it parallels really well with what Lan was saying. If I could sum it down to two words, it would be humility and then patience. I think thinking about humility in terms of, going back to kind of what I was saying about doing WITH people, not TO people, that takes a lot of humility. And if as leaders in any systems, we are to implement this work with fidelity, we are to implement it sustainably, we are to implement it in ways that are incorporating other voices beyond our own, which is really you know, one way of decolonializing the work is to really lead with humility, that we, as a leader in a system, you do have the responsibility to walk WITH people. But you also don't have all of the answers, right? And so it takes some humility to ask the right questions, ask what people need and also the patience to kind of meet people where they are at. And I think a lot of times we are very good at doing that with our youth, you know, understanding that they are they don’t always have the skills, and even the like physical development, to always make the right choices and we get that about young people. But oftentimes, and Lan has said this a number of times, and we might have even talked about this on the last episode, this idea that, like we are often asking our adults to implement systems or practices that they are not familiar with, that they've not received, they've not experienced. And so the patience to realize that, just like our young people, right? Sometimes it takes them some time to learn and adjust and to make the right decisions. Like sometimes our adults also need that grace. And they need the grace for us to meet them where they are at and to walk alongside them and in that, doing things WITH them and not TO them.

Claire de Mezerville Lopez

Jen, Lan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today and thank you so much for coming back.

Lan Nguyen

Yes, of course.

Claire De Mezerville Lopez

It was wonderful to have you, and thank you all for tuning in to Restorative Works! To learn more about our guests. Log on to IIRP.edu and let's continue to build transformation through dignifying relationships, kind conversations, and stronger communities. Until our next episode.